Following are excerpts from a TV debate with Egyptian MP Hamadein Sabahi and Abd Al-Rahim Ali, a journalist and expert on Islamist movements. The debate was aired on Dream 2 TV on July 17, 2005.

Hamadein Sabahi: The responsibility for the slaughter of (the Egyptian ambassador in Iraq) lies, first and foremost, with George Bush, his administration, and his military forces, occupying Iraq.

Host: And who else is responsible?

Sabahi: The Egyptian government. It's directly responsible.

Since the beginning of the crisis in Iraq, the Egyptian government's position was submissive, meek and contemptible. This position did not reflect the will of the Egyptian people, or the interests of the Arab nation. Rather, it has reflected submission to the American interests.

Host: And who was the third killer?

Sabahi: The third killer is the collaborating puppet government, which has no legitimacy in Iraq.

Sabahi: When the conflict is directed against the Americans, it is good. Any weapon that kills an American is good. Any gun aiming at the Marines is good. Any kidnapping or slaughtering of an American in Iraq is good.

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: In Iraq, there are a million Western and international intelligence agencies, which help Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi to disintegrate this country, and to keep the Americans there for another million years.

Sabahi: Are you saying America is behind Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi?

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: Of course. There is no doubt. I want to tell you something.

Sabahi: You mean that America is responsible for the killing of our ambassador?

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: Of course it is. The American occupation and the campaign in Baghdad between Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi and the Americans is the cause.

Al-Zarqawi, the "Qaedat Al-Jihad" organization in Iraq, and the Americans are the ones who slaughtered the Egyptian ambassador, and prior to that, slaughtered the Egyptian driver, and they are the ones slaughtering the citizens.

Sabahi: You cannot but salute this organization when it kills any American soldier - I'm not saying a civilian. I say that the presence of the Al-Qaeda squads in Iraq as resistance fighters, or as part of the resistance, is a positive phenomena that should be supported.

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: I totally disagree.

Sabahi: I support Al-Qaeda when it kills Americans.

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: Where is Al-Qaeda? Tel Aviv is still standing. Those who attacked the two towers in America cannot attack Sharon and Tel Aviv? Osama bin Laden did not donate a single pound or dollar to the Palestinian resistance. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are there. Osama bin Laden did not donate a single pound to the Palestinian resistance. He did not send a single fighter to the Palestinian territories to blow himself up at those who oppress the Palestinians every day. Where is Osama bin Laden?

Sabahi: I agree with you completely...

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: Bin Laden's a liar.

Sabahi: No, no. He's not a liar. Indeed, I call upon him to go to Tel Aviv.

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: He won't go. What's stopping him?

Sabahi: I am not responsible for Al-Qaeda, and I'm not Osama bin Laden's spokesman.

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: But you welcome their presence in Iraq.

Sabahi: Of course. I welcome them wherever there is American occupation.

Abd Al-Rahim Ali: They are an arrow in the heart of Iraq.

Sabahi: I welcome their presence, I support them, and I call to assist them, so that they attack every American soldier.